staying in/leaving the EU

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by rat, Mar 4, 2016.

?

well?

  1. leave

    9 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. stay

    17 vote(s)
    63.0%
  3. don't know

    1 vote(s)
    3.7%
  1. Hanners

    Hanners Strawberry Sae forever

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2004
    Messages:
    4,118
    Likes Received:
    1
    To turn that question around, how would leaving the UK change anything in that scenario? People with a valid passport will still be able to enter the country (unless you're suggesting an absolute isolationist policy where nobody is allowed to enter or leave the country under any circumstances), and if anything UK police forces will have less capability to share data with other European forces outside of agreements to that effect, leaving us more prone to criminal activity across the gamut.
     
  2. duoinchains

    duoinchains t'other resident yaoi fan

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2013
    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    2
    UK, Czech Republic, Germany, Latvia, and the Netherlands all cover child benefit/child tax credits to non-resident children of migrants. But do bear in mind that child benefit is only paid where NI contributions are received from the migrant parent.

    What arguably needs to be looked at is that the benefit is paid at the higher of the paying nation's usual rate or the receiving nations usual rate.

    Both were legal migrants (ie had documentation/passport/visa) and had not been flagged as criminals (ie had no previous) - I don't see how leaving the EU would prevent any repeat of that. As Hanners said, leaving the EU risks the links to European police forces who share data on convicted crims*

    *as with the CRB, it only picks up people who already have a criminal record... if you've never been caught, you won't be on the list/system.
     
  3. -Danielle-

    -Danielle- Whore dollas all over the place...

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,449
    Likes Received:
    6
    Wow, I can't believe other countries do that. Unless i'm missing the bigger picture. I'm guessing you wont get child benefits for a child for the country they're in too then if the country the parent is in is paying??

    Shouldnt people moving to another country have criminal checks done though regardless of in or out of the EU? Like surely if I wanted to live in Germany they'd want to see if i'm a murderer? Crazy!! Duo, the girl murderer was a convicted murdere in his own country first. Thats what I call bull on with regards to EU laws.

    I think people for the no vote seem to think we'd then get a points system like Australia, Canada and the US. That would increase my likelyhood to vote out but then again I can't see that ever happening regardless of the outcome.

    I just dont see why we can't just make our cap on people in and out? why does everything have to be so complicated :(

    There was a study about number of people per km or something close and out of all countries in the EU (I think all) we had the most people so I believe in a cap. Sorry if that offends. They keep getting rid of more land for more houses which are getting insanely small. At least around here. People living in "the sticks" (is the proper name rural??) wont be feeling the hit as much. Ex lives in partington and says there's not land being filled with houses and there's still nice road and actual grass about lol.

    I will indeed bask in uka stock cause theres f*ck all non concrete land near me now cept debdale park lol.
     
    #23 -Danielle-, Mar 7, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2016
  4. Hanners

    Hanners Strawberry Sae forever

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2004
    Messages:
    4,118
    Likes Received:
    1
    I don't think there's anything wrong or offensive at all with discussing migration, and the level of migration the UK can feasibly support is a big part of that of that conversation. However, leaving the EU won't have any hand in fixing the core problem because:

    a. We still speak English here, which makes us a desirable place to travel to given that it's the second language of most of those looking to migrate here so that they can more readily find work. (This is also the boringly simple answer to the "why do they all want to come here?" question, it's not about the benefits or because this country is some kind of paradise)

    b. Our border controls will at best not change and at worst be negatively impacted by walking away from our relationship with Europe.

    c. Illegal immigrants are, y'know, illegal, as in not adhering to the law, so why will more laws resolve this?

    d. As previously mentioned, discussions of the economic impact of migration are largely predicated on ignoring the net benefits legal migration bring to the economy. Again, it's still an important conversation to have, but certain media outlets and politicians are misrepresenting that conversation massively.
     
  5. -Danielle-

    -Danielle- Whore dollas all over the place...

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,449
    Likes Received:
    6
    Yeah overall I know they contribute shed loads. More so than some of those born and raised here. Theres far more contributing than those who dont. I think whats p*ssed people off as it has me is those who have snook in from Calais illegally, getting to stay here. What's that about? Its cases like that that put a strain on as theres no records and nothing being compensated like with those who come legally.

    I had a cancer scare at 21 and it was a foreign doctor who operated on me. I appreciate what those who come here to work contribute and i dont want anyone to think otherwise.

    I have however also experienced the not so nice side, the ones who hate the english, dont speak the language and dont respect our culture or us. Twice I have had my safety at risk shall we say from such types. Being followed home and approached and attempts at making me come inside their property. I do try to not let personal experiences shape the important decisions like I wont when it comes to this vote but where I live, I am slowly not feeling safe in certain parts of it. If this is worded poorly I am sorry, bad day and work and bad memories surfacing as you can see. I sadly think people will vote out due to experience/ beliefs (persecution) instead of for the bigger picture, for the greater good. For our future I hope not but for gods sake we need capping. We are not big enough.
     
    #25 -Danielle-, Mar 7, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2016
  6. Hanners

    Hanners Strawberry Sae forever

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2004
    Messages:
    4,118
    Likes Received:
    1
    For the most part, it's about our military misadventures and mismanagement contributing towards destroying entire nations and causing the residents of those nations to desperately flee to escape death, torture and ruin.

    Funnily enough, war and tyranny tend to cause massive displacements of populations. For more details, see: World War II.

    The irony of this is that the very politicians who voted to enact these follies of foreign policy are now the ones baffled by the influx of migrants desperate to escape the fates that we have at least in part bestowed upon them.
     
  7. -Danielle-

    -Danielle- Whore dollas all over the place...

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,449
    Likes Received:
    6
    I'm aware wars shift populations but why sneak in here when you're already in a safe european country and can therefore come here in the correct manner of those who do loads for this country and get so often misrepresented by the few.

    Why not learn the language and the culture of where you go to. God knows id ensure I respect where I would move to. hell, I do that even when I just go on holiday. If you come here thinking youre above us, you get ones who treat us like how I was. Keep in mind i'm not talking refugees. They had no choice in any of this. This paragraph i'm talking those who come here from a country not effected by war, who want to live here.
     
    #27 -Danielle-, Mar 7, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2016
  8. Hanners

    Hanners Strawberry Sae forever

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2004
    Messages:
    4,118
    Likes Received:
    1
    Because that would mean years of no employment and a significant financial cost to learn another language. When you're already proficient in English, it's a no-brainer - if I had to leave the UK (and god knows the way things are going that's tempting) I wouldn't move to Spain where I can't speak a word of the language, I'd look for somewhere that matches the languages I speak.

    There's definitely something of a distinction to be made here between refugees and so-called economic migrants, that's for sure. It's also a distinction that seems to be rarely made, as it ruins the easier "them versus us" rhetoric of some establishments.

    That's really the most inconvenient truth of all - that there is no one size fits all solution to this or any other problem, and anyone that tells you that either staying in the EU or leaving it will magically fix any of the major issues that this country is facing is talking bullshit. There are important issues at hand upon which this referendum is pivotal, but ironically the ones that people are shouting about the loudest are probably the ones least likely to be influenced by this choice.
     
  9. -Danielle-

    -Danielle- Whore dollas all over the place...

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,449
    Likes Received:
    6
    Yeah definitely, everyone for out is only considering one thing, I can tell by everything a fb friend posts *rolls eyes*

    I also dislike greatly how people dont make he distinction like I did between those who come here. Its not right at all.

    I get the difficulty learning but I still feel its necessary, you cant live here forever and not speak our language. So many use not understanding our language as an excuse for their behaviour and thats anyone not native to here I mean. For example, my ex got knocked down on his bike by the man who does deliveries at our local curry house. I have spoke to him loads and he speaks and understands english really well. Once he ran over dan his accent suddenly became more prominant and he was making out he didnt understand what Dan was saying. I too experience a foreign lady with her pram walk straight to the till pushing in front of myself and 10 other ladies, again used her lack of "how it is here" and understanding for that behaviour. If familiarising yourself with our language and culture becomes a prerequisite, we'd find less of this. Sadly the pram situation, ive seen this on a bus, the kid was old enough for the pram to be taken down for a wheelchair user, someone asked her to put it down, she plays the racist card. You are not better than a disabled person missy!!

    Big essay over one point. Sorry. Become less eloquent hence the need for lots of words instead of the right ones all compact. Thinking is taking it out of me today lol.

    But to keep to the subject, leaving the EU for immigration stance alone is very incorrect. There's way more to factor but I and probably many others have no idea where to find this other than the news which gets twisted for impact like when they moved the body of that poor drowned refugee boy to a different spot to make it "look better" for a bigger impact on the refugee stance. Dirty move to play but I see the method behind the madness.
     
  10. rjessop

    rjessop Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    649
    Likes Received:
    4
    Facts! Everyone loves facts. Here are some.

    The amount of money paid to EU migrants in child benefit for children not in the UK has been estimated (by the HMRC apparently) at 30m. The UK government spends approximately 743b a year, of which 30m is ~0.004% or to put it another way, if you took government spending and spread it out over a year, that accounts for about 30 minutes of that year. To put it yet another way, that amount of money spread across the UKs slightly less than 30m income tax payers (yes, I know, it doesn't exactly work like that), is slightly more than a single shiny pound per person per year. It's a rounding error, basically.

    Despite that; if it's still a concern, consider that Cameron's recent deal means that this sum will be reduced to take into account the amount of child benefit that would ordinarily be paid in the child's country of residence.

    Immigration and crime. To make the point succinctly, immigration and the amount of migrants resident in the UK are at a high in recent history for which reliable data is available yet the rates of most crime (particularly the kinds of violent crime Danielle has mentioned) hit a downward trajectory in the 90s and is still on it today. I don't mean to suggest that EU immigration has caused crime to fall (though...) but that it doesn't seem to have caused it to rise either so it doesn't seem sensible to place an emphasis on it when considering how to vote in this referendum.

    As an aside, the subjects of how and why violence has declined is the subject of a fantastic book by Steven Pinker called The Better Angels of Our Nature which you should definitely read because it's awesome. Those 800 pages will just fly by I promise you!
     
  11. Martin

    Martin guitaku
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    299
    Likes Received:
    5
    It's so refreshing to read a genuinely informed discussion on this (and the people who don't know admit that they don't know!). The sad reality of the way that the campaign is being conducted is that it's preying of fears rather than facts. Which applies to both sides.

    It's a shame that our PM is leading the "in" campaign, because his whole MO is to talk sternly in a patronising manner and frighten people. Ironically, the "out" camp is just as reliant on fear tactics: namely, good old-fashioned xenophobia. I've yet to hear a convincing "out" argument that doesn't boil down to "I don't like foreign people." I wish I could hear one.

    There's a lot of inefficiency and red tape, although the money that pours in isn't the one-way torrent that the newspapers would have us believe. It's so complicated that we really need some qualified economists to decipher it and give some accurate numbers*.

    Oh, and you know that EU court that's supposedly full of overpaid eurocrats who achieve nothing? Ukip are actually contributing to the problem: their MEPs have some of the lowest attendance rates of the entire EU parliament, so Farage and his pals are getting paid generously by an establishment they claim to despise while doing next to nothing.

    There's a lot that's wrong with the EU as it stands, not least the bureaucracy, lack of accountability/transparency and such. To look at it the opposite way though: if our powers to change those things are limited now, how will we be able to initiate change if we turn our backs on it? We'd have even less of a say, and the desire for change inside the EU will lose 60 million or so voices.

    The fact that the European Court of Human Rights is a separate entity is an important point. So is the reason why it exists: it was set up at (iirc) the end of the 1940s as a direct result of the Holocaust. Funny how your average DM reader flaps his/her hands around and says "I don't want to discuss it," when you point that out. Or simply ignore you, as bigots tend to do when their groundless prejudices have to face up to real facts.

    The whole aim of Brexit just sounds like an attempt to pull up the drawbridge, put our fingers in our ears and pretend that an entire continent will just bugger off and leave us alone. Except, several thousand square miles of earth, and millions of people, aren't going anywhere. As painful and inconvenient as it undoubtedly is at times, we have to learn how to get along with each other a bit better.

    Which we're doing a darn sight better than we ever have done. Seventy years of peace counts for something.

    *Just today, the governer of the Bank of England came under fire for listing the potential dangers of Brexit. During the same meeting, he also clearly stated numerous concerns of staying in, but as is often the case, his audience ignored the parts they didn't want to hear and accused him of being biased. Regardless of his personal opinions, let alone his professional assessment, the guy was in a no-win situation there.
     
  12. Kite

    Kite Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2012
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm voting to stay in on a couple points

    Firstly what guarantee is there if the UK votes to leave that the remaining states will want to do business with us, and what cost will that be, something similar to Norway where they have to tow the line regarding EU laws but have no say?

    Secondary the "out" camp has talked about reducing red tape and laws for businesses, but not which laws, I suspect it will be along the lines of them not liking the Working Time regulations, and want workers to return to the Victorian times with 60+ hour weeks

    As for immigration, history will say that immigration of humans has been happening over hundreds (and thousands) of years. Some British youths are lazy and think themselves better to do some of the entry level jobs, such as cleaning/catering, with degrees in media studies (and other worthless subjects which don't relate to the real world)
     
  13. Matt Kamen

    Matt Kamen Secret Mod. Shh!

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2009
    Messages:
    85
    Likes Received:
    0
    Stay. Stay, stay, stay, stay, stay.

    Leaving the EU would be disastrous. The deal Cameron cut was the best that his European counterparts were willing to make to get the UK to stay. Does he - or the out camp - think we'd get a better deal as a "hostile divorcee"? If anything, we'd probably face punitive actions.

    Not to mention all the other negatives of leaving - reduced trade, restrictions on movement (both ways - you can forget those cheap and cheerful trips to the continent), terrifying freedom for employers to exploit workers, huge losses of environmental protections.... the list goes on.

    And for those proposing a "Norway deal" - that deal is basically "you do what we say and pay into the EU kitty, but you don't actually get a say in operations". That is in no way an improvement on the relationship with have with our neighbours now.

    Honestly, it's kind of hard for me to talk about this and not get angry. The whole anti-EU movement is one fostered on small-minded xenophobia and outright racism. Not to mention the arguments from the - bluntly - old, out of touch, and frankly anti-scientific that boil down to "waaaah, I'm not allowed to use measurements that haven't been relevant in four decades!" Completely ignoring, of course, that practically everything still has dual measures (milk in pints and litres, for instance) and fruit & veg markets usually sell by metric and imperial weights. RAGE!

    So yeah, I'm definitely in the stay camp.
     
  14. Acteon

    Acteon Behind you...

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2004
    Messages:
    695
    Likes Received:
    40
    I feel as annoyed as Matt, but for all the opposite reasons.

    The EU has been, by any measure, an utter disaster for everyone in it, including us.
    I take particular issue with this statement:

    "whole anti-EU movement is one fostered on small-minded xenophobia and outright racism."

    Generalising offensive Guardianista bullshit - so basically anyone who disagrees with your opinion can expect to be attacked as one or all of the above before even making an argument. Not very liberal of you is it?

    Let me ask you Matt, how many British million-pound turnover manufacturing and export businesses do you own? At least one less than me, which means you have zero experience in the export market. I deal with around 80% of the countries on the planet, not one of my customers has ever expressed concern over our position in the EU. They don't give a shit, despite the rhetoric offered by your side of the debate to the contrary.

    Our turnover will double this year to 2 million, and that's during the EU "uncertainty".

    I also work in other industries as a consultant, mostly manufacturing, in areas such as healthcare or sports supports. Let me tell you, they ain't worried about leaving either.

    You talk of "punitive" measures against our exports. Based on what facts? As of 2013 we became Germany's largest trading partner (and we're not even in the Euro - gadzooks!). Since they pretty much run the EU, and one veto can stop any agreement, how likely do you think it is that they'll allow the EU to move against us? Pretty much zero.

    "terrifying freedom for employers to exploit workers"

    *Sigh* A bit of a tutorial on how the law works - acts of parliament have to pass EU legislation into UK law, and only another act of parliament can take it out again - do you have any idea how much time and legal wrangling would have to occur before any of these areas can be changed? And what political party is going to scrap all workers rights anyway? We've had legal rights for workers since the 1800's. It's a nonsensical, bullshit statement backed by nothing.

    "huge losses of environmental protections"

    Pardon? WTF has the EU got to do with our environmental policy? It's set at the UN, the last target meeting was in Kyoto (that well known centre of Europe!) FFS. The EU environmental targets are a subset of the UN targets. Here's a link:
    http://www.c2es.org/international/history-international-negotiations/2020-targets

    On another note, in the UK we had something called the Green Belt well before the EU or UN started looking at environmental issues (first proposed in 1935, fact fans!) and the actual amount of land-mass developed on in this country is 10%.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18623096

    We have a beautiful, mostly rural country with vast resources and clean air, protected by UK legislation for over 80 years. That is of course outside those areas that have suffered unfettered mass-migration from fiscally incompatible (read: poor) countries. But of course mentioning that fact makes me a massive racist (must be why I created a website about Japanese culture - camouflage for my evil agenda!)

    Environmentally the UK is streets ahead of the rest, and it's all pointless in terms of emissions anyway considering what we put out compared to other countries. It's willy-waving of the saddest, sandal-wearing sort when a small island nation assumes China gives a single, solitary toss about our emissions policy.

    Just as you find me small-minded, xenophobic and racist, I find the majority of those espousing our remaining in the EU self-interested ("you can forget those cheap and cheerful trips to the continent" - how entitled! And based on what evidence? What, precisely, changes? Last I checked I still had to present a passport at EU airports!), deeply dishonest and ignorant of commercial reality.

    By all means vote to stay in the EU - many of the voters (not those preaching) will vote to stay in because of positive reasons I respect - contributing to a common goal, closer relations to our neighbours, actual friends in the EU and a genuine desire to be part of a larger community. I like these people. I respect their optimism, even if I think they should be optimistic about this country instead of a faceless bureaucratic socialist state). Let me back that up - name your MEP without googling them.

    I wish the EU were a force for good, instead of a club for unelected, mostly failed politicians paying themselves exorbitant salaries for doing **** all at the expense of the truly vulnerable. It is centralisation of a grand socialist scale that I find absolutely ****ing terrifying, especially when Europol's police officers have diplomatic immunity and can enforce a European arrest warrant with powers of detention without a right of appeal.

    Let that sink in - a centralised Euro-police force that can arrest and detain you run by unelected government in another country. And there's nothing the UK government can do to help you.

    And LIBERALS think this is worth staying for??

    I only get offended when people use scare-mongering, emotive lies to paint anyone opposing their self-interested, ignorant liberal agenda as xenophobic racists.

    Nothing has changed since the 80's, except it's gotten worse. Time was the arguments were clever and cutting...

    Hacker: Europe is a community of nations, dedicated towards one goal.
    Sir Humphrey: Oh, ha ha ha.
    Hacker: May we share the joke, Humphrey?
    Sir Humphrey: Oh Minister, let's look at this objectively. It is a game played for national interests, and always was. Why do you suppose we went into it?
    Hacker: To strengthen the brotherhood of free Western nations.
    Sir Humphrey: Oh really. We went in to screw the French by splitting them off from the Germans.
    Hacker: So why did the French go into it, then?
    Sir Humphrey: Well, to protect their inefficient farmers from commercial competition.
    Hacker: That certainly doesn't apply to the Germans.
    Sir Humphrey: No, no. They went in to cleanse themselves of genocide and apply for readmission to the human race.
    Hacker: I never heard such appalling cynicism! At least the small nations didn't go into it for selfish reasons.
    Sir Humphrey: Oh really? Luxembourg is in it for the perks; the capital of the EEC, all that foreign money pouring in.
    Hacker: Very sensible central location.
    Sir Humphrey: With the administration in Brussels and the Parliament in Strasbourg? Minister, it's like having the House of Commons in Swindon and the Civil Service in Kettering!
     
  15. rjessop

    rjessop Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    649
    Likes Received:
    4
    So if somebody who runs a bigger company than you, which exports more than yours does and says that they and their friends are worried about leaving, you'd change your mind on this point?

    Our emissions targets are a subset of the EU emissions targets agreed at the UN (the EU partakes in these negotiations as a block). We participate in the EU emissions trading scheme as part of this (http://uk.practicallaw.com/6-503-1654?source=relatedcontent#a299817). Leaving GHG emissions aside, the EU is also responsible for generating a number of other environmental obligations and measures among other such areas as wildlife conservation and water protection.

    What fact? That migration, specifically from poor countries, causes pollution and/or environmental degradation? Does a Bulgarian migrant pollute more than a German migrant, all other things being equal?

    The Chinese government says that it cares as do other developing world countries. IIRC this has been the major bone of contention at many post-Kyoto climate talks as they make the reasonable points that we've benefited enormously from the economic activity that created our historic emissions and that our per-capita emissions still outstrip theirs by a long way. This is not "willy waving". Ensuring that we have a habitable planet to live on should be high on our list of priorities if not at the top.

    Goodness! That does sound like it should be a cause for concern. It's not true though about the diplomatic immunity; Europol isn't a police force as such with the power of arrest; requests come from EU member states' police forces, not "unelected governments" (Governments in other European countries are elected AFAIK); You can appeal an extradition order at the high and supreme courts, then the ECHR. It's by design that the government can't interfere with these extradition requests and frankly I'd prefer to have my route of appeal safeguarded by the more politically independent judiciary and not given to the caprice of a minister.

    Seems that story about the diplomatic immunity originated at the Daily Mail. Might I recommend a more trustworthy newspaper? Can't quite remember the name though... Pretty sure it starts with a G...
     
  16. -Danielle-

    -Danielle- Whore dollas all over the place...

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,449
    Likes Received:
    6
    Is that article in the Telegraph true that we'd have to use the euro by 2020? I hate the euro. Lol.
     
  17. Robert Frazer

    Robert Frazer Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2010
    Messages:
    173
    Likes Received:
    1
    I've heard a lot of people complain that we'd lose out on EU development subsidies by leaving - but this forgets that we're net contributors to the EU budget, to the tune of billions even after the rebate. Any subsidy we get is just us being allowed a portion of our own money back, and if subsidies are your concern then we should leave because not only would they not be affected but we'd have cash to spare.

    I find the economic arguments frustrating. In times past my dad used to be in the Merchant Navy, running refrigerated cargo from New Zealand (not a blemish on their lamb, unlike whatever crap is in European farms), until what was then the Common Market closed that route and put him out of a job. Maybe leaving the EU will make trade with one continent harder (but then I don't think Europe wants to lose 65 million customers so the effect might not be as pronounced as people think) - but there are six more in the world, and a Commonwealth that still exists despite decades of neglect. As it is, though, we have become thoroughly enmeshed in the Continental System - 200 years after Waterloo and Napoleon has finally won.
     
    #37 Robert Frazer, Mar 20, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2016
  18. Weirdo

    Weirdo UKA Editor in Chief
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,829
    Likes Received:
    57
    No, that's bollocks. We'd have to actively legislate to adopt the euro and drop the pound.
     
  19. -Danielle-

    -Danielle- Whore dollas all over the place...

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,449
    Likes Received:
    6
    Thank God for that Seb.

    Hate using the currency. The notes aren't bad but the shrapnel is minging as fook haha :p

    I love my GBP forever and always!!!
     
  20. megalomaniac

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
    Messages:
    1,648
    Likes Received:
    7
    Interestingly the CBI (who represent 190,000 businesses, including the FTSE 100 and 140 trade associations, according to Wikipedia) are very worried about leaving: http://news.cbi.org.uk/news/leaving-eu-would-cause-a-serious-shock-to-uk-economy-new-pwc-analysis/ "Even in the best case this would cause a serious shock to the UK economy." - Carolyn Fairbairn, CBI Director-General
     

Share This Page